Dbzero Governance Vote Post https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/63525728
Ahoy mateys!
A few of our users have recently pointed out that a lot of the pro-Zionist accounts on the fediverse nowadays seem to come from the feddit.org instance.
But whatever the excuse happens to be, they need to do better imo. Israel is currently the most violent, fascist and genocidal nation state in the Middle East (if you exclude the US military bases there). And yet feddit.org seems to regard the Palestinians fighting against Israel’s ongoing illegal occupation of their land as the real terrorists. …
More context
Our instance already voted to ban pro-Zionist accounts (see https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/60585441 for reference) and the rule that was implemented is here: Golden Rule #8.
As further context, you can find relevant comments and discussion in this post by a banned feddit admin in MoG (that fact they chose to post in MoG is in itself quite telling), and this post about their defederation from quokk.au over anti-semitism allegations has recently become active again. …
Note 2: If you think feddit.org deserves a full instance ban instead, or have alternative suggestions, then please leave your comments below. If enough people think that’s the better option, then we’ll do that instead.
In the end the Post had around 70% of support by dbzer0 users, who in the comments also called for defederation.
Here is a Link to Dbzer0 instances tab https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/instances where if you go to blocked instances you can see fedddit.org is now defederated
i dont think feddit has made a post now, but when they do i will add it
This all stems from a fundamental misunderstanding that no one seems to be interested in clearing up.
The original post that brought the allegations of feddit being zionist to more people is this one, and the one that originated the allegations is this one.
The feddit.org admin inside explicitly states that the removal of the comment being talked about by the original thread is not about pro-zionism or anti-semitism.
Now what does the person claim it is about? That seems to be majorly ignored. Let me rephrase it in my own words.
In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot of people still denying it or not believing it. One of those rules is that no statement may be made that makes national socialism seem better than it was. So something you can’t say for example is “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!”. This seems extremely weird from an outside (the person saying it’s) perspective, because obviously, yes, the tactics Trump uses are directly borrowed from national socialism.
However, if you look at national socialism as a whole, it was much worse than just ICE. Millions were killed etc.
Now, the person who makes the statement “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!” is obviously using it to express that ICE is terrible. But if you want to look at it from a certain way (which German law likes to do) it’s also saying that they’re roughly equal, which, since Trump and ICE is currently not quite at the level of full national socialism, would minimize the severity of national socialism by bringing it “down” to the same level as the Trump regime and ICE.
Obviously, from a perspective of a person today, this seems ridiculous, because the current threat is ICE and not national socialism, so who cares about “how national socialism is talked about exactly”?! Isn’t it much more important to make sure that ICE is taken appropriately seriously? And you would of course be right. But the stance is that the ends do not justify the means, and it is very much possible to fight against ICE without comparing it to the whole of national socialism.
This is what is being talked about by the mods/admins. It has nothing to do with either anti-semitism or anti-zionism.
Now, if you say something like “Trump’s ICE resembles early national socialism!”, that is a completely fine statement to make in the eyes of the law. You are actually comparing ICE to what it actually is, “early [stages of] national socialism”, and not “national socialism [in general]”.
Feelings are running high, even as I type these words, I can imagine it. But please try to think about this stance for a moment and try to see that it is not Trump ICE apologist, or trying to minimize what ICE is doing. It is simply trying to pay heed to two important issues at the same time, of which one has much more immediacy and current real impact on people’s lives than the other.
I used this ICE example on purpose because it is even nearer than the genocide in Gaza. And because it is farther away from “full national socialism style genocide”. I hope I could make the thinking in this example clear, and I hope at least a modicum of rationality can be attributed to this.
And now let’s go back to the original zionist accusations. The original comment was removed because of the last part of it, which said “Providing material support to Israel is no different from providing material support to Nazi Germany”. As much as people don’t want to see it, the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany. The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful. In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.
Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they’re doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany. And thus you could argue that comparing the situation in Gaza to national socialism is minimizing the severity of national socialism. And thus the same kind of argument applies as in the previous example with ICE, it just is even less understandable for a person who didn’t know/understand/agree with this argument.
I’m basically sure I’ll be condemned as a zionist now, or whatever, go ahead.
Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they’re doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany.
As someone with a relative who died in a Nazi death camp, I resoundingly disagree. The scale may be relatively smaller, given that they’re attempting to steal a much smaller area of land for their Lebensraum, but the level of evil is the same.
Look into the story of Muhammed Bhar or Hind Rijab and tell me it’s not. I’ll tell you your soul is compromised.
I absolutely agree with you, in fact I even said somewhere else in these comments that some of the stuff Israel is doing is on the same level or worse than what happened in Nazi Germany.
However, you said it literally yourself, it’s not on the same scale (yet).
Also, if you read my original comment carefully, I’m personally not even agreeing with the way this issue is handled, in my opinion, go ahead, compare Israel to Nazis. My only goal was to create understanding, and show that no, feddit.org is not actually Zionist.
In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot of people still denying it or not believing it.
True. But a lot of people on the whole Fediverse seem to be very narrow-minded black-and-white thinkers. In their logic, abiding to the law in Germany is equivalent to following direct orders from the Gestapo. Maybe you just don’t want to get arrested and put in jail for running a niche community on the internet, but that’s not even an argument to them.
Some people in that db0 thread even suggested feddit.org should just shut down completely, which is ridiculous. Every country must’ve laws you don’t agree with, but you don’t run and hide because of that.
This “we vs. them” attitude is exactly what’s been criticized about MAGA all of the time, but doing it in this case is perfectly legitimate, somehow. I don’t know what kind of brain gymnastics you’ll have to do to come to a conclusion like this.
It’s just exhausting trying to talk to these people. I say let them shut down their community and hang out in their radicalized bubble. Good riddance.
True. But a lot of people on the whole Fediverse seem to be very narrow-minded black-and-white thinkers.
“Black and white thinking” is when you don’t like people who defend their defense of genocide by saying “it’s the law”?
This “we vs. them” attitude is exactly what’s been criticized about MAGA all of the time, but doing it in this case is perfectly legitimate, somehow. I don’t know what kind of brain gymnastics you’ll have to do to come to a conclusion like this.
“Opposing genocide is the same as being MAGA because of vibes” is really incredible analysis, keep it up.
discuss.tchncs.de
Sometimes I wonder if German instances are a social experiment and our reactions are being recorded and analyzed.
The internet is awesome. You can discuss genocides with someone who named himself after an dictator who did several genocides! Who has a picture of this dictactor in his profile! And this guy is attacking others for “defense of genocide”! Great invention this internet thingy!
The internet is awesome. You can discuss genocides with someone who named himself after an dictator who did several genocides! Who has a picture of this dictactor in his profile! And this guy is attacking others for “defense of genocide”! Great invention this internet thingy!
We have found the most historically literate feddit user.
Are you really denying that Lenin killed several millions of people?
Yes. Further, genocide isn’t simply killing people, war isn’t necessarily genocide even if it results in millions of deaths.
You want an example?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Cossackization
And we need to be honest here: Lenin war not a good person. He personally ordered the murder of thousands of people and the Red Terror is not “simply killing people”.
There is no black and white in settler colonialism
what [Netenyahu’s Israel is] doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany.
Very difficult to say this for sure. Some of the acts we’ve seen are on the same level, frankly. And how could you possibly measure this, objectively?
I don’t think this can be argued meaningfully, and so should be removed from your argument.
As to the German law:
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Is that applicable here on Lemmy?
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Is it up to the mods to interpret German law and apply it?
Very difficult to say this for sure. Some of the acts we’ve seen are on the same level, frankly. And how could you possibly measure this, objectively? I don’t think this can be argued meaningfully, and so should be removed from your argument.
I was attacked by people from dbzer0 and called “pro genocide” for saying that, but: There is of course a way to measure and compare violent acts. There is a whole academic field called “Comparative Genocide Studies” which, as you can guess, studies genocides, their differences, how they were committed and is trying to compare them or to categorize them. There are also people doing this from a military point of view studying how wars are fought and so on. That is something you can do - but not here on Lemmy.
As to the German law: Is that applicable here on Lemmy? Is it up to the mods to interpret German law and apply it?
Yes? Feddit.org is an austrian/german site and therefore has to operate under local rules. The fediverse is not some lawless cyberspace thing. It has servers running in datacenters and those servers have to account for local laws. It has people funding those servers and those people are people living in their home country have to obey local laws.
those people are people living in their home country have to obey local laws.
You have a moral responsibility to disobey moral injustices, even when, actually, especially when they are codified into law. If you rely on the German standard you have no functional mechanism to communicate that a genocide as as bad as the Holocaust is occurring. Which is obviously ridiculous, and you should disobey that law.
I don’t think we can expect commenters to be as nuanced as an academic specializing in genocides.
On the legal front, it is to me morally obvious that that comment was pretty measured and deleting it was fucked. If you claim to do a fucked thing for legal reason, I think it’s fair to demand evidence that you are under legal duress. Is there a history of feddit specifically or german fedi sites.in general being hammered for “antisemitic” comments?
The answer to that would determines how much I am pissed at german authorities for misapplying the law or at feddit admins for being biased and/or cowards.
Very difficult to say this for sure.
I agree, but the death toll for example is a potential way to measure it. But again, I never said that the genocide in Gaza should happen, in fact I want it to be stopped by almost any means necessary, like not a counter-genocide.
Is that applicable here on Lemmy?
I’m not providing any commentary about what should be done, I was just hoping to help people understand that feddit.org is not filled or run by Zionists.
I want it to be stopped by almost any means necessary
Lol. “Almost”. Aka, you condemn all groups actually resisting it.
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“In Germany after National Socialism we have all been brainwashed to support genocide and Zioism and have to legally support our government sending weapons to a genocide because we like the previous one so much. Also we have a Gestapo which enforces this just like how we did in WW2”.
I’m basically sure I’ll be condemned as a zionist now, or whatever, go ahead.
Literally putting on the classic Nazi disclaimer
Can you explain why Germans have learned absolutely nothing from the Holocaust?
I don’t disagree with your assessment that some kind of propaganda in support of zionism and maybe even genocide is happening. But if you really see support of genocide and zionism in what I personally just said, I really don’t know what I could say to convince you. It seems you’re not truly listening to me and trying to understand. I can just hope eventually you will see that there is no point to us fighting, and I wish you well.
Edit: and to say “Germans have learned literally nothing from the Holocaust” is just ridiculous. You’re using false hyperbole to make Germans in general (who have very diverse political opinions individually!) seem like literal evil, and that simply helps no one except the ones that want us to fight.
If you really see support of genocide and zionism in what I said, I really don’t know what I could say to convince you. It seems you’re not truly listening to me and trying to understand.
Oh no, people are not trying to understand your subtle and nuanced argument of “Palestinian genocide and the Holocaust are different because the Jews never fought back”.
You are trying to reduce my argument to one dimension that “sounds” reasonable, while ignoring things like it literally being in the charter of Hamas to destroy all Jewish people in Israel. And you’re going to say it is the prerogative of Palestinians to fight back, and again I would completely agree with you. It just doesn’t make much sense to argue with you, so I’m going to stop.
You mean the outdated charter that has since been replaced to clarify opposition to the settler colonial state, rather than Jews as a whole?
That is good and I did not know that.
The German government is sending 30% the weapons to mass murder Palestinians in a concentration camp. This denial of full German government support for genocide is why nobody takes Germans seriously when they claim to care about the Holocaust. Take a long hard look at this image and see what you can take away from it
If you cannot differentiate the German government from me or the people of Germany, then I can’t help you. “Full” is something entirely different. I hate what my government is doing.
You sure love defending it though
Can you explain why Germans have learned absolutely nothing from the Holocaust?
America and Western Europe were more interested in fighting the cold war, so they rehabilitated most of the nazis and put them in charge of everything.
In 1957, 77% of the [West German Justice Ministry’s] senior officials were former Nazis, which, according to the study, was a higher proportion that during Hitler’s Third Reich government, which existed from 1933 to 1945.
This is only one small example, the practice was widespread in West German as well as NATO generally.
That report also found that 14% of workers in the East German Interior Ministry were former Nazis — a surprising finding, considering the communist government’s purportedly rigorous effort to rid itself of former Nazis.
Notice the extreme difference here, between 77% and 14%. Even if East Germany’s de-nazification was probably not as thorough as it could and should have been due to practical concerns, it was still nothing like in the West. I’m saying this because I fully expect the “both sides did it” deflection from westerners (which is what the linked article is obviously trying to do in this quote). Notice also “senior officials” vs. “workers”.
If you rely on the German standard, you’d never be able to call a genocide a genocide until its fully executed.
Which obviously supports those committing the genocide.
Have you really not seen me multiple times calling the genocide in Gaza a genocide? The ability to recognize the genocide in Gaza as a genocide is very much there, you really can’t see it?
Look at the response in context of Feddit. Its not a critique of you, per se, its a critique of the German law/ idealogical approach. Lets suggest, in your words, a full “national socialist” genocide is at least possible in this day and age. The world did no know the full extent of Germany’s action until well into the process.
If we rely on the logic of the German approach, we wouldn’t be able to call the thing a thing until its too late. The point being made is that if you wait long enough to be able to a full historical analysis, you’ve effectively become an apologist for genocide on the basis of a lack of evidence.
And I would argue that Israels actions over the previous 80 years are extremely comparable to what the National Socialists did in Germany, and in some ways, even more disgusting. Germany ran concentration camps for around 12 years. Israel has been running them for almost 80. Germany treated it as a war of extermination. Israel is running it as a war of extermination. What other than a death camp would you call Israelli detention facilities?
The only difference is that we have the opportunity to stop Israel in its tracks, now, as its becomes clear the Israelies are not going to stop until the entire Palestinian population is eliminated. Disallowing or diminishing comparisons between the most famous historical genocide and the ongoing Israeli genocide in Palestine supports genocide
The thing is called a thing and should be called a thing. I.e. genocide. All genocide needs to be stopped at almost any cost. I don’t have any capacity to argue further, so many people are saying things.
We all get why Germany has strong laws against antisemitism, given its history. That doesn’t mean German support towards Israel need to be unconditional, which is what has happened, in effect. The left, the right and the center in Germany all seem to agree on one thing… unconditional support for Israel.
“German history and our responsibility arising from the Holocaust make it our duty to stand up for the existence and security of the State of Israel.” – Olaf Scholz, October 2024.
You are basically taking the same line as Scholz, despite the fact Israel has proven itself to be a fascist ethnostate that seems intent on genociding all its neighbours. Anyone who is still committed to justifying or both-sidesing the Israeli genocide of Palestinians needs a smack in the head imo.
I do accept the fact you have acknowledged the genocide. But then why are you so hung up about folk making equivalences between fascist genocidal Israelis and fascist genocidal Nazis? It’s about the most obvious comparison one could make. Arguing that it’s a false equivalence is simply another way to excuse the atrocities committed by Israel. Statements like “Israel has done a few bad things, but they are nowhere near as bad as the Nazis, so you mustn’t make a direct comparison” are nothing more than genocide apologia. Just because Israel has done a “smaller” genocide (so far) doesn’t mean shit to me. Zionist ideology is just as reprehensible as Nazi ideology.
More than 75,000 Palestinians were killed in the first 15 months of Israel’s military assault in Gaza, a figure far higher than the 49,000 deaths local health officials announced at the time, says a new study by The Lancet Global Health medical journal. The peer-reviewed study, published on Wednesday, found that women, children and the elderly comprised some 56.2% of violent deaths in Gaza during that period, a composition that it said roughly aligned with reporting by Gaza’s health ministry. […]
“The combined evidence suggests that, as of Jan 5, 2025, 3–4% of the population of the Gaza Strip had been killed violently and there have been a substantial number of non-violent deaths caused indirectly by the conflict,” the authors wrote. Source
I’m not even arguing for the things you’re talking about, I’m just trying to bring some understanding. In literally none of the things I talked about, nor in what the feddit.org admins talked about, was there anything about keeping up unconditional support for Israel.
any support of pissrael is zionism. Everyone knows what pissrael stands for, what it does, this is like talking about “unconditional support for nazi germany” in 1943. No amount of conditions is gonna make support for a genocidal apartheid settler colony appropriate.
Death to Pissrael, Death to the united Schutzstaffeln of ameriKKKa, Death to genocidesmany, Death to the Nazi-American Treatler Organisation, Long live the global south and the proletariat.
The thing is called a thing and should be called a thing.
Ok. Well thats not what you are doing and its not what German law or Feddit is doing. People are trying to call a thing a thing, and are getting push back saying “You can’t call this thing that thing”.
You are doing the thing people are accusing you of; you are apologizing for genocide, not resisting it.
You again ignore that the “thing” I talk about is a “genocide”, which is what is happening, and it is one of the worst things humans can do to each other and needs to be stopped at all costs.
You insist on not trying to understand, I’m done.
You insist on not trying to understand
No, its that you continue to insist that your “nuance” isn’t apoligism.
I’m done.
This isn’t a train station. No need to announce your departure. Everyone here can read your words and judge you for themselves, and they are, and they see you apologizing for genocide. You should take the time of your departure to mediate on why that might be.
If we rely on the logic of the German approach, we wouldn’t be able to call the thing a thing until its too late. The point being made is that if you wait long enough to be able to a full historical analysis, you’ve effectively become an apologist for genocide on the basis of a lack of evidence.
Untrue: it’s a matter of accurate wording. “The evidence so far indicates they’re potentially…” or “For all we know, they could be…” gets the same idea across without violating integrity concerning degree of certainty or knowledge.
Providing material support to Israel is no different from providing material support to Nazi Germany
Technically & literally false: they are different. A lawyer can challenge the falsehood.
Providing material support to Israel is bad for the same reasons providing material support to any genocidal state including Nazi Germany is bad
Providing material support to Israel is providing material support to a genocidal state
Providing material support to Israel is as bad as providing material support to a feebler Nazi Germany
All technically correct or opinion.
Claiming shit is true before we have the evidence to justify it is invalid & another way to state you’re claiming shit you don’t actually know: you’re spouting shit. Spouting shit is fine in cool countries that respect liberty. However, Germany is not one of them. Spouting the wrong shit in Germany is legally risky: apparently, the law parses words with autistic literalism.
By punishing verbal laziness, the law doesn’t necessarily “support genocide”. It is coercing you to stop being a slob & express yourself with (annoying?) accuracy.
The ability to recognize the genocide in Gaza as a genocide is very much there
Only while saying the people resisting it are also wrong and doing Holocaust exceptionalism in defense of liberal zionists, lmao.
And now let’s go back to the original zionist accusations. The original comment was removed because of the last part of it, which said “Providing material support to Israel is no different from providing material support to Nazi Germany”. As much as people don’t want to see it, the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany. The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful. In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.
The original comment was good and correct. Supporting one settler state committing genocide is actually the same as supporting another.
Only while saying the people resisting it are also wrong
I’ve never said that the people resisting their genocide were wrong to do it. You’re intentionally misinterpreting what I’m saying.
The original comment was good and correct
I don’t disagree with you, that’s why I tried to explain the nuance, but apparently I failed, I’m sorry about that.
I’ve never said that the people resisting their genocide were wrong to do it. You’re intentionally misinterpreting what I’m saying.
No, I’m really not. You’re all over this thread repeating hasbara lies about Hamas and misrepresenting the history of “Israel” in comparison to the history of the Holocaust (you correctly include the Warsaw Ghetto in the Holocaust but appear to think the Nakba isn’t relevant).
You might actually have convinced yourself that this is principled and nuanced anti-zionism, but it’s not. You are being a zionist and I urge you to reconsider your positions on this.
I don’t disagree with you, that’s why I tried to explain the nuance, but apparently I failed, I’m sorry about that.
You didn’t fail to explain what you mean, I understood that. Where you failed is that you are, knowingly or unknowingly, manufacturing nuance that does not exist.
the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany
Last I checked, the genocidal state of Israel is actually using weapons to vaporize Palestinians, thus leaving not even a trace of a war crime. Would you like to amend your statement?
You know full well that this is not relevant to the point I was making, and seems like arguing in bad faith. If so, then please reconsider being kind and rational.
If you are genuine, then: I hoped it was very obvious that I know that some of what Israel is doing is as bad, and worse than what happened in the Holocaust. That does not mean that the scale is the same, or that the situation leading up to this is the same. While very clear parallels can be seen, and the direction this is going is very clear as well, it is simply false that the genocide in Gaza is even in the same order of magnitude as the Holocaust yet. That does not mean that the genocide in Gaza isn’t absolutely terrible, what I’m saying is that the Holocaust was just that bad. Is that enough amendment?
Look up what the term ‘order of magnitude’ means and please absorb the -fact- that you are wrong in this statement. The genocide in Palestine is literally the same order of magnitude as the holocaust.
Then look up the term ‘lampshading’ and refer back to your original comment at the beginning of this thread.
Crying preemptively about how people are going to call you a nazi doesn’t make you any less of a nazi.
about the later’s Zionist Bar Problem
I’d prefer to have a less biased title for this thread because this is a very one-sided point of view and just parrots what the db0 admin claims without questioning them.
Edit: Thanks for putting it in quotation marks, OP.
Disappointing how many downvotes you have, especially given zero other responses thus far. You’ve got a valid point, and the mod/admin teams at db0 already have their own behavior issues, so there’s surely more to the story than this.
Yay anarchists! 👍
Boo zionists! 👎Classical Lemmy.ml comment
I thought .ml were disgusting authoritarian tankies, now also anarchists are tankies? Almost as if it was a left-punching slur all along :o
I meant the inability between distinguishing moderating hate speech and supporting genocide.
Lemmy.ml definitely has its problem with nuanced positions.
There is no nuance in settler colonialism and supermasist ideologies
Yes, we should be moderating hate speech and opposing genocide. The hate speech and genocide direct at the Palestinian people by the Israeli Settler Colony.
Especially since the .ml-ers are mostly Putin bootlickers and authoritarian fans. I hope real anarchists can see that.
Fuck anarchists, tankies, Zionists, regressives and bigots in general.
Y’all just different shades of the same crazy.
Everyone is crazy, except your team, right?
a predictable lemmy.ml user retort.
Lol, go back to reddit
Relevant username? :)
I didn’t notice c/europe was zionists. I just typed israel, I see highly (legitimately) upvoted posts against it.
I’m sure you can find some unsavory stuff, but I haven’t stumbled upon it once.
On the other hand I’ve been confronted to authoritarian bootlickers too many times from ml. If you don’t defederate from them too then you’re not being consistent.
Echo chambers make you stupid.
Zionists eat shit.
Such a stupid move…
Dang and I just made this account too. Time to find a new instance… Any recommendations? How is lemmy.today?
This whole process has looked sus to me. And on top of that, I don’t think voting by up/downvoting the post itself is a good way to call votes — it means a minority can pass a rule without it being even seen by the majority (not sure that matters in this case). Voting should be done in a top-level comment.
- it means a minority can pass a rule without it being even seen by the majority
Why do you think that?
People might not see the stickied post, for whatever reason. I’m mostly on X hours top, which hides the thread if older than X hours. Or someone could just not use Lemmy for a week. There is no notification or similar, no email alert.
I would argue that this would be the minority of users, not the majority.
You can come to feddit.org, we have mostly normal people instead of armchair internet warriors lol
deleted by creator
lol so you join the place with the social credit score
What is that?
piefed.social keeps a hidden trust score that goes down when people do stuff the piefed dev personally doesn’t like. there was recently a bunch of drama about it
Jesus fuck.
It’s literally just a number admins can use to sus out if a user might potentially be a toll. It’s basically reddit karma but hidden from everyone but admins.
.ml users tried to make it a big deal because people were leaving lemmy for PieFed.
Reddit Karma is not good, I don’t want a Karma system on the Fediverse. That was one of the worst things about Reddit. Karma is essentially ass-kissing points, you get them for kissing ass, and you loose them for making people butt-hurt.
I can’t support that, it creates nasty psychological patterns that make people prone to siding with popularity and not with what’s right.
You dont have a karma system on the fediverse, only admins can see it.
Individuals dont know what their score is, there is no benefit to them trying to farm it because they cant see or use it. There is no psychological pattern formed because its an admin only tool.
This is the most overblown criticism of piefed around.
This solidifies my decision for migrating my account from there to piefed.social
but I also don’t actively participate in deep political discussions especially regarding Israel/Palestine
Showing your true colours here. By the way, it’s not “political discussions regarding Israel/Palestine”, call it by its name: genocide of Palestinians by Israel.
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I don’t think you have bad intent here, but I think Riverside didn’t like the implication that “deep political discussions” are necessary to understand that “Israel/Palestine” is in fact “the colonial genocide of Palestinians by Israel”. I think that’s fair. It’s OK to not want to discuss politics online, but you don’t need “deep discussions” to know that colonialism is always wrong.
I’ve noticed this too and have been following the conversation. However, I think self-isolation isn’t the answer. Allowing r/The_Donald to go private didn’t stop the far right.
What works is challenging these people, constantly. Mockery, abuse, whatever it takes. But building up echo-chambers, or allowing echo-chambers isn’t the solution.
its not really an echo chamber, lemmy unlike reddit is decentralised, so nothing is stopping a dbzero user from just making an account on feddit.org and interacting with them, in reddit if the admins decide to ban a community that community is just gone.
also having an echochambers isnt bad, like an instance like blahaj should be allowed to exist and not federate with instances that have a lax policy on transphobia, and thanks to lemmy’s decentralised nature you can join or make an instance that does have wide federation
Just because lemmy is decentralized doesn’t mean it doesn’t for echochambers. I mean look at ml. Or look at what squid did as a moderator to worldnews and political memes.
Echo chambers are absolutely a thing on lemmy. They exist at different scales (instance, sub, individual) but they absolutely exist.
I mean look at ml.
You mean the place constantly flooded by disagreeing liberals? Let’s be honest here; by “echo chamber” you just mean “place where my ideology isn’t the default”
What is a good alternative instance for me that is not supporting Zionism, but also not db0 as I feel some of the communities on feddit.org don’t really have the Zionism problem?
You could use an instance that federates widely (such as lemmy.zip) if you want to be able to interact with as many communities as possible.
This will probably be unpopular but the leftist - liberal infighting is my least favorite part of the fediverse and why I usually end up having to give people a warning before telling them to get on the fediverse.
This drama is kind of the epitome of that
Before Lemmy, I didn’t know it was possible to go so left that you hated liberals.
Liberalism is supportive of capitalism, leftism begins at anti-capitalism. What did you think the left was before Lemmy?
Liberalism was the original leftism: see the French revolutionary National Assembly. It doesn’t intrinsically have anything to do with capitalism. In general, liberalism is neither left nor right. It promotes individualism. Historically, it progressed from humanism.
leftism begins at anti-capitalism
Not the political science definition.
General definitions & the historical development of liberalism are academic.
liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty.
Some of the earliest liberal practices are found in the US Declaration of Independence, which predates the French revolution spreading the practice of liberal ideals throughout Europe. The US declaration pretty much rehashes core tenets of liberal philosophy
- inherent equality of individuals
- universal individual rights & liberties
- consent of the governed (governments exist for the people who have a right to change & replace them, & authority is legitimate only when it protects those liberties).
Note how capitalism isn’t mentioned anywhere: it’s nonessential. Capitalism predates & isn’t liberalism. Liberalism is moral & political philosophy, not an economic one.
The philosophy is a natural progression of humanist philosophies from the Renaissance through the Protestant Reformation & the Enlightenment that stress the importance of individuality, secular reasoning, & tolerance over dogma & subservience to unaccountable authority. To address unaccountable authority based on dogma & traditions, English & French philosophers defined legitimate authority based on humanist morality pretty much as expressed in the US declaration. They argued that political systems thrive better with limits & duties on authority & an adversarial system of institutional competition whether in separation of powers, adversarial law system with habeas corpus & right to jury trial, competitive elections, dialogue, or economic competition.
Liberalism arose as a bourgeois ideology to use against the feudalist systems, the equivalent in feudalism being the clergy and the church. The mode of production capitalism is based on individual ownership of capital, and claiming the labor-power sold by workers is equal in position to the capitalists buying the labor-power and selling commodoties.
Liberalism was left when feudalism was dominant. Putting it in its historical context, it helped overthrow feudalism. However, there is no “Absolute Idea” of Hegel, what was progressive at one point is still reactionary at a later point. In the era of capitalist decay, socialism is on the left, the progressive ideology.
Corporate media didn’t want you to be exposed to any ideas outside of the Overton window.
Sometimes the further left extremes I’ve heard hear are indistinguishable from conservative Q-Anon. I legitimately need to check users post histories to understand which extreme they are on
They are very clearly distinguishable, just not to you yet. Until recently, you’d only ever heard disagreements coming from your right, so you confuse disagreements coming from your left with them.
- ‘Horseshoe theory’ is nonsense – the far right and far left have little in common
- Are the far-left and far-right merging together? That’s what the ‘horseshoe theory’ of politics says, but it’s wrong
Liberalism in fact has more in common with fascism than socialism: they’re both capitalist ideologies. Previously.It’s very easy to distinguish if you actually act in good faith, which you clearly don’t
I legitimately need to check users post histories to understand which extreme they are on
If you can’t tell the difference between “media companies serve the interests of their owners and managers” and Q-Anon, that might indicate a problem with you rather than with others.
Ain’t much difference between MAGA and tankies.
Communists and fascists are diametric opposites. Communists seek to collectivize production and distribution to fulfill the needs of everyone. Fascists seek the preservation of private property and the extermination of labor organizers. Lazily equating the two and doing nothing to back it up is just “enlightened” centrism.
Good thing I didn’t say communist then
I can’t think of any “leftist organisations” that support Zionism ? Maybe you’re confusing fascist with leftist ?
I mean “leftist organization” is a weird term and I would more speak of currents. And there is definitely the Antideutsche or Anti-Germans.
The German left, at least the loud one, is publically dividing between this topic. On demonstration you see a lot of people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy, as there is often only “anti genocide and pro genocide” in online discussions. But the world is very complex and there is a large continuum between Islamic and Jewish ethno state philosophy.
Don’t be discouraged. Personally I don’t have the energy any more to endure the abuse of the mob (these “leftist” ignoramuses whose obsession with “Zionism” leads them to support literal fascism) but it’s important that somebody makes the points you’re making.
Hemming and hawing over genocide is disgusting.
Seriously, imagine typing “there is often only ‘anti genocide and pro genocide’ in online discussions” and thinking “yes, I will post this and look like a very good and moral person”. Yes, if you’re not against genocide you’re for genocide. Yes, if you think supporting the resistance to genocide is antisemitic, you are a genocidal zionist. This type of “nuanced” “anti-zionism” (liberal zionism) is also widespread on feddit.org.
What I think they meant was that people here only think about the genocide and thus declare the perpetrators evil (which they are) and the victims the good guys (hamas are not).
One side’s atrocities don’t justify the other side’s. Excusing your own group’s actions because they’re the good guys is far right thinking.
In reality there’s more factors to this than just the genocide, and both hamas and israel are the bad guys in their own way. One is just worse than the other, but that doesn’t make the other good.
In this particular conflict, Hamas very much are the good guys (if we have to think in such childish terms) in the same way that the allies were the good guys in World War 2 despite the fact they were mostly genocidal empires themselves. Hell, Hamas are far less evil than almost every western government, especially the German one, because they aren’t actively supporting mass genocide.
You condemn all groups actually fighting against Isreals genocide. That is just supporting the Genocide with extra steps
declare the perpetrators evil (which they are)
Correct.
and the victims the good guys (hamas are not)
You’re wrong, Hamas are in fact “the good guys” in this conflict. The resistance to the genocidal settler state are good even if they don’t measure up to whatever arbitrary standard of perfection you have in mind.
One side’s atrocities don’t justify the other side’s. Excusing your own group’s actions because they’re the good guys is far right thinking.
Bullshit framing designed to try to equate between the invading settler state (with overwhelming firepower) and the (often barely adult) native resistance just trying to survive and protect their homes.
In reality there’s more factors to this than just the genocide, and both hamas and israel are the bad guys in their own way. One is just worse than the other, but that doesn’t make the other good.
“Hemming and hawing over genocide is disgusting.”
You’re wrong, Hamas are in fact “the good guys” in this conflict.
The world will be better when humans will be able to escape this manichean thinking.
It does not make you a Zionist on Lemmy. You are a Zionist in real life.
“Opposing Hamas makes you a Zionist”, can you confirm that statement?
Yes, opposing the main resistance to zionism makes you a zionist. Glad we all understand each other.
Edit: not that you’ll see this, I can see piefed.social dropping my replies to you because you have me (or maybe my instance) blocked.
You believe it is evil to resist Isreals imperialism. That’s Zionism
You said supporting Hamas is antisemitic. Why are you crawling back to the word Zionism now?
Me
[…] people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy […]
You
It does not make you a Zionist on Lemmy. You are a Zionist in real life.
Again you
You said supporting Hamas is antisemitic. Why are you crawling back to the word Zionism now?
Me
???people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism
This is a Zionist defense of Israel by conflating antisemitism with anti-Zionism.
The German left, at least the loud one, is public ally dividing between this topic. On demonstration you see a lot of people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy, as there is often only “anti genocide and pro genocide” in online discussions. But the world is very complex and there is a large continuum between Islamic and Jewish ethno state philosophy.
This is all nonsense and you are indeed a zionist. Thank you for making it clear to everyone.
That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy, as there is often only “anti genocide and pro genocide” in online discussions.
Thank you again for clarifying which side of this choice you are on.
ask an anti german what they think of muslims in the middle east :) it’ll be the most misanthropic thing you heard all day. anti germans are disgusting zionists and need to be shunned from leftist places. they are pro-genocide and there is no nuance to it. they are not part of the left, just delusional cosplayers
You should have been bullied more in school.
“Is genocide bad? Who can say, it’s just so complex!”
Saying Hamas is antisemitic is sure fire sign of being a Zionist.
Palestinians are a semitic people.
If you want to saw that Hamas hates Jews, well, when your entire life has been being bombed by planes with stars of David on them, while jackbooted thugs with stars of David on their shoulder kick in your door to kidnap your family members in the night, and settlers with star of David necklaces show up and claim your home and land by divine right, I can start to see where you develop feelings toward the people who carry the same sign.
Maybe, just maybe, if Israel wanted the world to be a safer place for Jews they would stop associating a genocide with Judaisim as they are so fucking desperate to do.
Antisemitic clearly means anti-Jewish. Sure it technically means all Semitic people, and as such a better word could have been used so long ago, but it’s intended and in use meaning today is very clearly defined. Jewish people have been some of the biggest victims of Middle Eastern and European hate for thousands of years.
You’re doing the #AllLivesMatter of religious hate.
I joined to talk about math and programming. It’s a letdown that this Podunk platform seems to consist mostly of the weirdest, loudest people who saw the political compass meme and took it way too seriously.
Leftist vs liberal infighting has been going on since the late 1700s.
Of course what you really have to ask yourself is, if they’ve been infighting since basically the beginning and if their ideals are diametrically opposed then is it even in fighting?
Liberals love to call it infighting because it allows them to take credit for all the progress that happened thanks to leftists. And yet they’re always on the right-wing side of those “infights”.
ok.
Such an excellent thread for filling out my block list
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Nah, it was decided with a vote. The majority in that server wanted Feddit blocked and that’s what came.
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