“Well, first of all, they’re completely wrong,” Huang said in response to a question from Tom’s Hardware editor-in-chief Paul Alcorn about the criticism.
“The reason for that is because, as I have explained very carefully, DLSS 5 fuses controllability of the of geometry and textures and everything about the game with generative AI,” Huang continued.
Just a elongated way to say AI slop.
Looking forward to the day I boot up a new game and all the characters look like this because I don’t have DLSS 9 enabled
On the bright side there are more games than anybody can play in a lifetime that already exist. Sucks ass for my favourite hobby and lifelong companion from before my memory begins, but hey.
And, indies are still going strong. AAA died ten years ago, but we still get classics like Outer Wilds
Yeah, it’s actually been kind of a relief to have fewer new games to look forward to every year. I have a backlog of something like 700 unplayed games already in my library. I know I’m not going to play them all as much as they deserve before I die, but being able to make a much bigger dent in them is nice.
Gamers do not want x.
Gamers are wrong about this.
That is definitely how it works. Keep pushing that line.
I don’t like this movie.
You are wrong and must like this movie because I like it!
Fuck. Off.
We’re at the “the customer is always wrong” stage of capitalism. Wheeeee
That’s because everyone remembers that particular saying incorrectly, similarly to “a few bad apples,” or “the blood is thicker than water.” Everything and every saying is being twisted to mean exactly opposite what it should be to protect the pedophile capitalists that own everything.
Maybe so. It’s too nice a day to get upset.
In this case the customers are giving an opinion in a matter of taste.
The blood thingy always meant what it means today:
No the fuck it didn’t. That page is wrong. The full quote is “The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb.” Meaning that you can choose your family as an adult, and should do so with care and consideration.
Ah, and your sources? Like they have on the Wiki page. Cause the usual source for your version is “this blog, where somebody wants to sound smart”
My grandmother, as well as The Gospel of Thomas, IIRC. It’s somewhere in The Apocrypha, I remember reading it in Catholic school
So is nvidia’s plan to just not have any market share in a few years?
When the AI bubble pops they’re going to need someone to buy their stuff again. Perhaps pissing everybody off isn’t the best long-term strategy. But what do I know I’m only their target demographic.
They’ll just force remote computing on everyone. They’ll find a way to milk this further.
No. They force us to like their slop to keep their mouths full of shareholder-dicks to get more of that thick and juicy shareholder sap.
And they’ll keep being wrong. But that’s ok, flat earthers still exist too.
That’s been the line they have pushed for at least three decades now. It didn’t seem to be hurting them until rather recently, when it started affecting the larger software world.
Same with DLSS 1, in a few years people will like it.
Probably… not? I’m not sure anymore, about it but i think everything is going to look the same in some years with this tech and we, gamers, are becoming more and more aware of our power to turn the tides so, our hate could bury the sloppy part of the tech. EPIC CEO thought the same (in some years people will love me) with the epicstore and people mostly still hate it even with 100 free games in their account.
Gamers are not the primary market for GPU anymore. Its AI sadly. So they get away with shit like that…
DLSS has no application in AI, though, so that point is not really valid here.
Its a sideshow, a marketing gag, and they get way with shitty marketing because another industry buys their stuff anyways. I don’t see where that is not a relevant or valid argument.
There’s absolutely no application for DLSS 5 for anything other than gaming
“Well, first of all, they’re completely wrong,”
Proceeds to explain exactly what everyone hates about it.
“The consumers don’t know what they want. I, the CEO, know what the consumers want. And the consumers want to give me money!”
None of this is done for the average consumer/gamer. We’re not the consumers he’s addressing.
DLSS is a consumer product.
“Do you guys not have two GPUs?”
Jensen Huang has all the GPUs, he can probably play games where each character has its own dedicated GPU and every atom and molecule of the environment is rendered in real time with a hyper-realistic physics engine, with built-in AI that plays for you so that even your idle pastimes are automated giving you more time to WORK AND PRODUCE VALUE FOR THE OWNER-CASTE.
“This game only needs two GPUs to run, what’s the problem?”
The more you buy, the more you save!
Remember, he’s never talking to us, he’s talking to major stockholders.
Even some of those can read the room and reach the conclusion that “if people won’t buy it, I won’t make profits”
Don’t you guys have phones?
Same exact vibes.
But we thought everyone was okay with repackaged interpolation! Why not repackaged Instagram filters!?
I think most people are ok with frame gen because it doesn’t touch the actual content. It just moves things around a bit with motion vectors which actually was kind of a thing even before AI although not very good. It didn’t repaint the game into some different art style.
Also there were real frames in there.
This is going to 100% replace the game graphics.
I think most people are ok with frame gen because it doesn’t touch the actual content. It just moves things around a bit with motion vectors which actually was kind of a thing even before AI although not very good. It didn’t repaint the game into some different art style.
Naw most people are not ok with fake frames, and like raytracing is getting less and less likely to be left on. Most people however hate fake frames not due to the frames themselves but the motion blur effect that seems to be needed to make things look ok on top of the frame gen (no one likes motion blur).
You are right that this is going to replace game graphics to some degree since its another shortcut game studios can use to cut costs (and the industry is kinda struggling at the moment). Why spend effort, time and money making a model look good when you can use a tool to gloss over the work and while it does not look “good” per say it will look better then it should.
Yep, I’m more suggesting that this was the logical path they would have continued down.
I personally don’t like the generation because it’s functionally noise and can effect the feel / responsiveness of the game. Upscaling seems pretty reasonable - but like many I just can’t abide by the notion that we are counting a generated frame as a frame for benchmark sake.
I’m not against framegen existing. It’s a preference. Same as that feature on TVs. To each their own.
Back to the new dlss though: yeah it was inevitable they go here… and I’m personally thrilled this was the line everyone more or less took issue with.
By the amount and intensity that this man tries to sell his garbage through sheer bluff and bs you’d think he’s running to be President someday.
Don’t give him ideas
Achievement unlocked: Whoever is wealthiest gets to be President.
WHAT HAVE I DONE !?!?!?
(｡╯︵╰｡)
So this dumb fuck’s own marketing material has said this operates off final pixel colour and motion vectors (for temporal stability presumably) - that says to me that it’s not working with actual geometry info at all. It probably has a step to infer geometry but it’s still just a fancy Instagram filter working with limited data and an obviously ill-suited training set.
the previous versions at least need the software to supply motion vectors. otherwise it’s just guesswork. i’m assuming there will be some way to supply lighting information as well.
whatever the final product can do, they certainly didn’t show it off in their examples.
Technically, at least on vulkan, these things can be inferred or intercepted with just an injected layer, though it’s not trivial. If you store a buffer history for depth you can fairly accurately compute an approximation of actual (isolated) mesh surfaces from the pov of the view. But that isn’t the same as real polygons and meshes that the textures and all map to… pretty sure you can’t run that pipeline real time even with tiled temporal ss. Almost definitely works on the output directly, perhaps some buffers like motion vectors and depth for the same frame that they’ve needed since dlss2 anyway. But pretty suspect to claim full polygons, unless running with tight integration from the game itself, even then the frame budgets are crazy tight as it is, nevermind running extra passes on that level
Probably not meshes since it is way too expensive. But these guys write the GPU drivers, so they of course have access to the different frame buffers and textures buffers and light source data. So just from depth and normal map data you can get a good representation of geometry. Like deferred rendering lights the scene with the data in the G-Buffer, which is 2D, not geometry.
Oh, thanks for pointing that out.
Ignoring that current version looks sloppy, as a gamedev I would accept extra AI beautification post processing step as additional feature, but I would never accept corporation getting their hands into my beloved geometry.
That’s what he’s saying. That it doesn’t change the geometry or textures (still completely controlled by the devs) and that the parts that it does change are also tunable by the devs.
He’s responding to the backlash about how it changes models/textures (which it doesn’t) by saying those are still fully in the hands of the devs and the parts people are seeing in the demos can be fine tuned by the dev teams to match their vision for what they want it to do or not do (like change lighting on material surfaces and hair but not character faces as an example).
It’s a post-processing screen space effect. At that point, there’s zero control the game can have over the geometry. If the AI model wants to change it, it can. It fundamentally can’t only operate on lighting like the marketing claims, it can only make a hallucinating best-effort statistical guess at what the geometry in the final image should be.
Strong principal Skinners energy. “Does nobody want my AI slop filter? No, it’s the gamers who are wrong.”
Principal Skinner is lovable and charming though…
I’m tired boss
Still on a 1660ti and probably will be for the foreseeable future lol.
RX590 reporting in for the ‘never able to upgrade’ squad…
GTX 760 🫡
It’s “super clocked” so you know it’s good!!
Lol mine’s the MSI ‘Fatboy’ edition. It has a 50% bigger heat sink, so I can’t use the PCI port below whichever slot it’s in. 😂
Repurposed my 750ti in my homelab server lol. That poor thing is also likely not gonna rest any time soon.
Trillions invested to make unoptimized games barely run, and make it look worse at the same time, instead of just investing like 1/10th into optimization during dev cycles.
NVIDIA really is like a parasitic cancerous growth on the side of the games industry, it’s existence increasingly predicated on the destruction of current standards, overtaking their function to ensure survival and it’s continuous ever expanding cancerous growth
Surely this is just a marketing stunt they pulled in the hopes of temporarily pumping share prices or something? Despite their claims that it can be optimized before release, I think there is basically no way they get it running at playable frame rates without a second dedicated graphics card on current gen hardware. They’re going to release it with terrible performance, promise to improve it, a few people who have dual 5090 setups will try it but almost everyone will ignore it, and the promised optimizations will either never materialize or they’ll be much less impactful than promised.
“The reason for that is because, as I have explained very carefully, DLSS 5 fuses controllability of the of geometry and textures and everything about the game with generative AI,” Huang continued.
He seems to be thinking of it as basically a post-processing effect, but it’s certainly the least performant one ever devised. Even if it’s true that the art teams can tweak it to get exactly the effect they want, I find it hard to believe they’d ever be able to get it running on the hardware they’re targeting, so it will just be an expensive novelty for games that want to promise the most bells and whistles.
Edit: Wait I just saw this,
“It’s not post-processing, it’s not post-processing at the frame level, it’s generative control at the geometry level,” he said.
What is he on about? Surely it’s not really mucking around with stuff earlier in the rendering pipeline? That would make it completely different from all previous versions of DLSS, why would they call it DLSS 5? I don’t think he understands how it works at all.
It’s definitely a stunt for share-holders, not directed at consumers.
Generally if the CEO says it, it’s for the shareholders.
no way they get it running at playable frame rates without a second dedicated graphics card on current gen hardware.
Their marketers are salivating at the thought.
Bro just invented a worse ENB that needs a second 3k GPU to run and is surprised to be called out for how shitty his invention is…
Weird to say it changes geometry when all the vids clearly have identical geometry before and after
This is long winded but I firmly believe this explains a lot about the industries frenzied push into all these odd directions… All of it. Here seems as good as any place to dump this mess I’ve been stewing on:
I really think it’s important that raytracing, while novel, wasn’t created to improve visuals. It wasnt created to make a programmers life easier. It was created because it was computationally difficult and could be optimized for. It was a fantastic play by nvidia. They created a feature that functionally did very little but they could get an entire cycle ahead of the competition in that optimization. Differentiation of products, in a duopoly, is a big deal. Amd dove right into it - knowing full well that this would leave them brutally behind… But this was a fortuitous event: despite the disadvantage.
Why? Simple. GPUs have been struggling against Moore’s law. Framerates were exceeding ranges even monitors can refresh at. And worse yet there was another hard limit: our eyes. How do you sell cards that have no perceivable value?
Reality is we may well be reaching a point where additional resolutions and framerates dont matter. Badly optimized games only buy so much time.
These companies aren’t stupid. Crypto? They loved it. Computationally expensive. Always need faster… Until we didnt. What now? Demand was plummeting for overpriced high end cards.
Go back and look at when AI and nvidia got in bed. The earnings call was due to be a bloodbath after all these cards were rotting on shelves, unpurchased, and depreciating daily. It was coming ro light that they had been selling cards to miners under the table and that was going to get ugly fast. I have never, in my life, heard a company talk so much about a product on a earnings call – that wasn’t theirs. Not a word breathed about unsold cards barely any numbers discussed. ChatGPT referenced so many times that there was confusion as to whether nvidia actually owned it. The Q/A at the end was comedy gold. People were so confused.
AI was the perfect save. AI is a power virus. Want to fix the black box? Train a black box to mangage that black box. Its a computational sinkhole. They’ve extracted value from gamers to dimishing returns. Meanwhile they can sell the ultimate snake oil to investors: virtual slave labor. Unpaid workers. In floods private equity. Gamers stopped mattering immediately. All of these advances are software. From a GPU design company. Why? It shuts up the peasants while they continue rebranding the “snake oil” to get whoever is buying. Weve nearly achieved the panacea. Just a bit longer!
Behold: we have dressed our industry in the finest of the emperors newest clothes. You can either start selling them or be the only one who doesn’t.
🫧
From a programming and visuals standpoint: Ray tracing was always sought after, and it is peak graphical fidelity. It makes visuals better, and (shader) programming easier, more physics-based. It’s not just differentiation, the industry has been dreaming of realtime ray-tracing for 30 years. With slow, continuous movement in that direction.
Dont get me wrong. Its absolutely a very novel and useful feature. It made shit look great. I’m not down on the tech: I’m just saying the push for it wasn’t for the industry. It was to kill framerates and sell cards.
I doubt it. This thing was in the pipeline for decades. It wasn’t just nvidia doing the thing because moore’s law. Everybody was interested and excited, while the moore’s law was alive and well. Literally can’t find better quality, but intel was pushing tech demos such as this.
The actual push for adoption and walled garden of NV RTX is… honestly, just business as usual. Nvidia did exact same with PhysX. Once they have the technological edge, they push hard to pump their ecosystem. They always played evil.
It is good business. Shit for the consumer (unsurprising) … But really aside from Jensen’s apparent ego - I’m curious why nvidia has any interest in the gaming sector. I feel like they accomplished the perfect transition.
STOP BUYING NVIDIA
i feel like we might as well drum up som boycotting spirit while we’re at it. Shaming certainly has an effect as evidenced by his statement here, and if we could add to that a collectivist ‘no more money for you doofus’ energy i think that’d be swell.
We aren’t their main customers anymore, and it would least force them to also aknowledge this themselves. Hopefully.
Idk folks, keep adding pressure on these ghouls, seems to at least have gotten their attention
STOP BUYING NVIDIA
Boycotts in a duopoly, especially when most clients are businesses, don’t work.
Feels odd to say it but suddenly I’m happy Intel didn’t (completely) shit the bed.
I never understood why everyone was completely happy with one manufacturer having dominance. Everyone seem to think it was just ok for them to be no competition in the market. Here is exactly why we need that competition.
Exactly. The more compititon the better. Imagine what we’d get if nvidia was split into 3 new companies and had to compete. 5 total companies suddenly would be very motivated to make a substantial product to bring to market at a competitive price. We as consumers need this diversity to keep the market honest and moving forward.
Unfortunately social media users who post are not the average gamer and that’s very apparent when 95% of the discrete GPU market is Nvidia now.
Plus doesn’t help the only other two competitors is AMD who are also jumping on the AI bandwagon and doing not actively competing. Then there’s Intel that’s in bed with Nvidia now.
I gave them.up in 2020. The measurable difference between them and AMD didn’t warrant the expenditures, and neither did Intel. Absolutely no issues since.
Would have to boycott pretty much all hardware. I don’t know of any large hardware manufacturer that’s not chasing the AI investment money and bribing the Trump admin.
Don’t have to do anything, I’m just being vocal about certain feelings hoping others do the same. Boycotts don’t work yadda yadda sitting on your ass also don’t work bla bla…
in really not invested in what you decide to do at the end of the day, keep buying or don’t or whatever suits your fancy… I can just feel this move tainting Nvidia and their products with an inherent ‘ewww’ reaction on my part which very strongly disentivises ever buying their shit, and I feel like it’s generally good if people are honest about how they feel about phenomena in general, that’s how shared sentiments, zetgeist and ‘common sense’ is created u know
Fair enough. I was just trying to point out that the entire hardware industry, and pretty much the entire executive and investor class is doing the same stuff as Nvidia.
